Sunday, February 19, 2012

Robert Murat - Arguido Statement Part 2

With many thanks to Albym ... tm#p8p1947

Processo, Volume VIII, pages 1947-1956 (10 pages)


Date: 2007/07/10; Time: 10:00; Location: DIC Portimao
Officer: Paulo F., Inspector.

Defender: Dr. Francisco Pagarete
Credentials no. 498F
Office: Rua Conselheiro Joaquim Machado, 37

The constitution of defendant status and the formalities provided for in Articles 58 and 196 of the CPP have been met in this case.

See also

He was warned that the lack of response or falsehood about his identity and criminal background does incur criminal liability.


Asked if he wanted to respond to the facts that are imputed against him, he responded:

---- Yes, he intends to respond to the questions that are going to be put to him.

---- Despite having British nationality he understands perfectly the Portuguese language both spoken and written therefore the presence of a translator is not necessary in this interview.

---- Asked if he confirms his previous testimony he responded that because on the day the interrogation was conducted he was very tired and does not remember exactly what was said at that time, that is he recalls in general terms what he said, but does not remember the detail of some statements.

---- His previous declarations having been read to him he confirmed having made them, however it is his wish to amend some of affirmations that were made then [at that time] as he had confused some events, in particular in what he said with respect to the dates and times of what happened.
He stated events that he said had happened on Wednesday 02 and that now he more calmly recalls them having happened on Thursday and vice versa.
There are also other events that he now recalls happened in those two days in particular that he wants to disclose.

---- Further in what he said with respect to the days before and those subsequent he confirms the facts reported in the previous interrogation, giving them as if fully reproduced for this present interview.

---- He intends to clarify that when he stated having lived at various locations in England, instead of Norfolk, Devon - Sidford and Norwich he would like to say Norwich, Norfolk, that corresponds to the house where he lived with his ex-wife, Dxxx, his daughter Sxxxx and his adopted son Dxxxx, namely in the locality of Hockering ... Norfolk, and when he
said Devon Sidford he would like to say Sidmouth, Devon which corresponds to the house previously of his grandmother, now owned by his mother, located in Sidmouth, Devon, Ex..., it being that the Ex corresponds to the post code of region's principal city which is Exeter, located about 20 km from the town of Sidmouth.

---- He intends to clarify that he has no accounting qualification.
In truth when he worked in car sales firms, called INCHCAPE and NISSAN, in Norwich, he attended professional training courses aimed at the sales sector.

---- He clarifies that when he said that after the death of his father he returned to Portugal, he would like to say that he returned to England because on that occasion [at that time] he was living with his mother in Portugal.

---- He wants to clarify that now he is already divorced from Dxxx since 04 July 2007.

---- He states that when he travels to the United Kingdom he is housed in the home of his sister Sxxxxxxx MURAT, or in the home of her boyfriend, both mentioned in the previous record of the interrogation, or in the house that was previously their grandmother's, now deceased.

---- He wants also to clarify that in fact Michaela accompanied him three times to the United Kingdom and her daughter, Cxxxx Sxxxx Walczuch Ant�nio, only accompanied them once, namely at the time of Christmas of 2006.

---- The trip to the United Kingdom that he intended to make on 09 May was based on the fact of him having booked there a medical consultation and he intended to stay in the house that was previously his grandmothers.

---- The defendant intended to clarify that on the morning of 02 [May] he did not leave the house by 10:00-10:30, as stated previously but in fact he had met with Sergey Malinca on 02 [May], Wednesday, in the Baptista supermarket, at 10:00, he having arrived 15 to 20 minutes before and accompanied by Michaela whom he had gone to collect at her home in the VW.
They talked about the Romigen web site that Sergey was setting up.
The meeting lasted about 30 minutes and in the end Sergey left alone with the accused and Michaela having proceeded to Lagos.

---- Asked for what reason he had not previously remembered this meeting, given that he had said previously that that morning he had left the house by 10:00-10:30, he said now that on the date of the first interrogation he was "rattled" and had not remembered this fact.

---- To this point he wants to say that on the day prior to his interrogation he went to bed around 03:00, having up to that time accompanied officers of the PJ, namely Inspector Reis Sxxxxx, who invited him for coffee in the bar Bom Vivant, where they remained until about that hour he being certain that he was woken up at 07:00 when PJ officers went to his house.
So he had slept for only about 4 hours and was therefore very tired.

---- In truth after the meeting he proceeded with Michaela to Lagos, as he had affirmed in the previous interrogation.
He wants also to clarify in this interview that before they had gone to Francisco Pagarete's house they were both at Caixa Agr�cola [a bank in Portugal].
There the defendant made a cash deposit, of [English] pounds, into his account.
He does not remember the exact amount deposited but thinks that it would be about one hundred or so pounds.
In this interview [for the record] the defendant confirmed through the reading of a tally slip that that deposit was exactly an amount of 287.51 Euros.
He states that when he was in England he withdrew this amount, from an Automated Teller Machine (ATM), from an account of his or his mother's that he/she has in Lloyds bank with the objective of coming later to deposit it in his account at Caixa de Cr�dito Agr�cola.
Asked he states that usually he has with him debit and credit cards of his mother.

---- Later the defendant and Michaela went to the home / office of Dr. Francisco Pagarete, on foot, given that that residence is situated about 200 meters from the bank.
It would have been about 11:00-11:30 when he found Dr. Francisco Pagarete in his home.
Since he [FP] had not been telephoned by him [RM], using his mobile phone 91918xxxx, it was then agreed to meet later.

---- For reason of accuracy he now says that the meeting that happened afterwards was not with four persons but with five, that is Michaela, Jorge Sxxxx, Jason, another son of Jorge and the defendant himself.

---- Also he clarifies that before having been with Dr. Francisco, already during the afternoon, the defendant and Michaela went to collect Cxxxxxxxx at school who then accompanied them during all the rest of the day.
 He refers therefore that after having been with Dr. Francisco they did not go directly to the home of Michaela, having instead gone to the marina of Lagos where they had met again with Jorge Sxxxx, and his son where they continued the conversation about the company that they intend to make.
It was at this time that Cxxxxxxxx was allowed to play in an playground behind the caf� where they were.
He does not remember the exact time that they left the caf� but he knows that when they had left there the owners of the caf� where they had been closed the doors of establishment.
He recalls that he gave Jorge Sxxxx and his son a ride in his VW van to the bus stop located next to the post office, where they left them, the defendant, Michaela and Cxxxxxxxx having then proceeded to Michaela's house.
He remembers that when they arrived there Michaela began to prepare the dinner so it would have been about 20:00.

---- He states not being sure about having seen Lu�s arriving that night at Michaela's house.
He affirms that around 22:30-23:00 he left from the home of Michaela having gone directly to his home, that is to Casa LILIANA, where he will have arrived by 22:45-23:15.
He does not remember having stopped anywhere nor having spoken with anybody on that journey and he took the route that he usually takes passing by Intermarch� [a super/hypermarket chain in Portugal] and by the Total petrol station.
He is sure that he left the van parked in the street, that is in front of the house, because he always does that when he uses the van.
---- Again questioned, he states with absolute certainty that on the night of 02 May, after leaving the home of Michaela, he went directly to his home.
Once in the village of Luz he only stopped the car next to the gate and entered his home immediately.

---- Having been informed in this interview that around 15:44 on 02 May he made a telephone call to the number 91822xxxx, which corresponds to the phone of Dr. Francisco Pagarete, he confirms that in fact, before driving to his

[FP's] office/home, he [RM] had contacted him [FP] to know if he was there, [that] was what happened.
For the rest of what happened that day he confirms what he stated in the previous interrogation, reaffirming that in truth he spoke with his mother, who was still awake, and that he connected the computer having stayed awake until about 01:00-01:30.
In this regard he affirms it to be normal [usual] that his mother is still up until about 00:00-01:00, given that only after dealing with some tasks, namely feeding the cats and other chores does she go to bed.

---- He had states that on 02 or 03 May, in the afternoon, for matters related with business, he visited two apartments of the same owner, located at the foot of the "rotunda da bola" [football roundabout/traffic circle] in Lagos.
These visits lasted about 20 to 30 minutes and he did them together with Michaela.

---- He also wants now to amend what he previously said about what he did on 03 May.
 Once again he states that being tired and confused he had stated things that he now sees are not correct.
 He refers therefore that he will have got up at 08.00 having left home by 08:45.
He had already scheduled a business visit to a tourist complex called "Montinhos de Ouro", located in the region of Espiche, which he made in the company of Michaela.
So he went to collect Michaela at home, driving the VW.
He does not remember if he went up to Michaela's home.
He states that that morning they were both in his van at the complex where they had scheduled a meeting at a time he does not recall exactly but thinks it would be by 09:30.
---- They showed up at that location where they met with the father-in-law of the owner of the venture, whose name he does not remember, but knows that he is a builder in Lisbon, since she still had not yet arrived.
However the owner of the enterprise arrived and Michaela made conversation with her.
Later they went to lunch at the place mentioned in the previous interrogation after which they went to the marina in Lagos where they met with Jorge Sxxxx and his son.
Cxxxxxxxx did not accompany them this day.
They went to the Palmares Golf where they remained until the time came for them to go to pick up Chnstine, that is 15:00-15:30.
Again he gave a ride to Jorge Sxxxx and his son leaving them again at the bus stop next to the post office.
From there they proceeded to the school to pick up Cxxxxxxxx and the three went to Michaela's house having arrived by 15:45.
They were in Michaela's home until 19.30.

---- He states that about 19:30 he left the home of Michaela alone and went directly to his house. He took the same route the day before and is absolutely certain that he did not stop anywhere.

---- For the rest of what he said about this day during the 1st interrogation he maintains all its content.
He adds, however, that in the meantime he consulted on the Internet his mobile phone billing and found that on that night he made two calls which he had not remembered having made.
At 23:39 to the number of Sergey Malinca and another at 23:40 to the number of Michaela.
He does not remember, however, having made these calls nor having spoken to those people although he admits he had.

---- Further to what he said about Friday morning he intends to change the time that he woke up.
 In listings of his fixed phone it says that he made a call to Michaela at 08:27, which he presumes he must have done, despite not remembering the contents of the conversation nor even having made that call, and therefore he did not wake at 09:00 but before that time.

---- After the opportunity having been given to the defendant to amend facts and information that he had stated in the first interrogation, he was questioned about other matters.
---- In this interview the defendant was shown the list of contacts obtained from the calendar/address book of his mobile phone and PDA previously examined by the PJ, and he was asked to clarify who those people are which was done as follows:


Michaela Empre: MW. 282..., telephone number installed in the home of Michaela;
Michaela reside: MW. 919..., the number of phone Michaela;
Michaela MW. 960..., number of Michaela's mobile;
Lithografi L: 966..., number of the graphics/printing company in Albufeira, this company undertakes the printing for
Samantha SM: 441..., phone in his sister's house ... in Exeter Devon;
Richard Resid RM: 441..., phone in his brother's house ... in Warwick;
Neil N: 447..., is not sure but thinks this is the mobile phone number of a former co-worker of Nissan, Norwich;
Samantha SM: 447..., mobile of his sister;
Richard RM: 447..., mobile of his brother;
Mike Wxxxxxx MW: 491..., telephone of Michaela's brother who lives in Germany;
Ian CI: 139..., phone in the Mr Ian Cxxxxx's house Exeter, "ansiao" of the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses in Exeter with whom he maintains a close relationship because he had been his Bible teacher in Exeter;
Michaela car MW 778..., mobile that Michaela used when she was in England;
Dawn D 790..., mobile of his ex-wife, but this has been changed recently;
Checo C 792..., mobile of a friend called M.R.C., who lives in England, where he is an accountant in the NHS, they have known each other since childhood and contact each other with some frequency;
Raj R 797..., mobile of a boy he met when he was helping in the search for Madeleine with whom he spoke for some time, he has not talked to him since;
Ian IC 797..., Ian Cxxxx as previously said;
Z� Montinho ZM 282..., a car repair workshop used by his mother;
Jenny Resid JM: 282..., his mother's telephone;
Vital Rxxxxxx VR 912..., mobile of a Jehovah's Witness whom he met through Michaela, name Vital Rxxxxxx, resident in Lagos, with whom he does not maintain close contact;
Manuel Mxxx MM: 914... mobile of Mr Manuel Mxxx, whom he met professionally and with whom he has met about twice;
Serge S: 914..., mobile of Sergey Malinca with whom he maintains a professional relationship;
Ricardo Hxxx RH: 914..., mobile of Ricardo Hxxxxxxxx, a former colleague in Remax, currently not in contact with him;
Sara Nxxxx SN: 916..., mobile of a colleague in Remax with whom he has no current relationship;
Nuno Bxxxxx NB: 916..., mobile of Nuno Bxxxxx, married to the former manager of Remax in Lagos, with whom he was a friend but currently not in contact;
Rita Dxxxxx RD: 9163xxxxx, mobile of an Irish girl he met about 2 years ago at a fashion event who then worked with Michaela in Centry 21, with whom he has no contact nor knows where she lives;
Sonia Cxx SC: 917..., mobile of Sonia Cxxxxxx, a former manager of Remax of Lagos, former wife of Nuno Bxxxxx;
JM Jenny: 917..., mobile of his mother;
S�nia Cx CYC: 918..., another mobile number of Sonia Cxxxxxx;
Luis A LA 919..., husband of Michaela;
Tina Infa TI 934..., mobile of the nursery that the daughter of Michaela attended in 2006;
Laura Cxxxxxxx LC 939..., seamstress in Lagos to whom he turned several times for small clothing [business] deals;
Robbie Murat RM: 960..., he thinks that is the mobile number he used when he worked for Remax;
Telma Nxxxx TN: 961..., a former colleague Remax with whom he has no relationship;
Lita Oxxxxxx L0 962..., mobile of Lita Oxxxxxxxx a former colleague in Remax, mother of Ricardo Hxxxxxxxx, no contact;
Rui Cxxxxx RC 963..., mobile of a former colleague of Remax with whom he currently has no contact; when they worked together, between June 2005 and early 2006, they were friends and travelled to Germany twice together to find cars for market;
Luis Sxxxxx LS: 964..., old colleague in Remax who is not in contact;
Pedro Mxxxxx PM: 964..., Manager of Century 21 in Lagos who is not in contact, they only spoke on professional matters;
Aunt Mxxx TM: 966..., Filomena Sxxxxx, Michaela's aunt who lives in Lisbon whom they have visited two or three times;
Lindsay Gr L: 967..., he does not remember who this person is;
Prazeres R PR: 967..., a friend of his and Michaela who resides in Lagos with whom they have a close relationship but it has been many months since they got together;
Lurdes Mxxxx LM: 967..., Lurdes Mxxxxxx a former colleague in Remax who is not in contact;
Tania Rxx TR 968..., a colleague in Remax who is not in contact;
Z� ZC: 969..., he thinks this Jos� Nxxxx, a colleague in Remax who is not in contact;
Veronica Fxx VF 969..., colleague in Remax who is not in contact;
Romigen R does not know why he put this in his agenda but it is the name of the firm he plans to implement.
---- Regarding the agenda of the phone he states that:
Michaela 919... is Michaela's mobile;
Michaela 282... is Michaela's fixed line at her home;
Michaela 960... is another mobile of Michaela;
Anna 447... is the mobile of his niece, daughter of Samantha;
Chris 447... is the mobile of his former boss at Inchcape, the car firm in Norwich, Chris Sxxxxx, with whom he remains friends and has sporadic contacts;
Dawn 447... is the former mobile of his ex wife;
Dawn 441... is the current fixed phone of his ex wife;
Elena 966... is a friend, solicitor with offices in Portimao and Monchique with whom he maintains close links but they have not met for some time;
Elena 282... is the telephone at the house of his solicitor friend;
Lucy 916... is Lucy Cxxxxxxx's mobile, his mother's house maid but with whom he is friends;
Lucy 282... is the phone in the home of Lucy;
Maria 968... is the phone of the wife of former colleague and friend Rui Cxxxxxxx already mentioned;
Nelson 968... is a friend, Nelson Pxxxxxx, living in Lisbon, whom he has known since the age of 16 but meets only sporadically;
Rob 969... he does not remember this number;
Rob 919... is his current mobile number;
Celly 917... is the current contact for his aunt Sally Exxxxxxx;
Celly 282... is the phone at the house of his aunt above;
Sonia Cxxxxxx 918... is the former manager of Remax in Lagos who is not in contact;
Ant�nio Fxxxxxxxxx 917... is a Civil Constructor in Lagos with whom he has a professional relationship;
Carlos Dxxxx 917... is another house-builder in Lagos with whom he also has a professional relationship;
Diana Mxxx 282... is an American lady who had a home for sale in Praia da Luz with whom he did not do business;
Fernandes 336... it seems to him that this was a potential Spansih client with whom he did not do business;
Manel Cxxxxxx 917... is a civil builder with whom he maintains a professional relationship;
Paulos 964... is a man who had an apartment in Lagos to sell but with whom he did not do business;
Peter Wxxxxx 912... is responsible for a building in Lagos with whom he maintains a professional relationship;
Steve Axxxxxxx 282... no recollection of who this is but probably a client;
Jorge Rxxx 968... it seems that this is a PJ Inspector with whom he spoke during the Madeleine case;
Jo (Sky) 351... he knows this lady, a friend of his uncles who live in Burgau, but with whom he does not and did not maintain any relationship;
Nuno Jxxx 918... he does not remember to whom it belongs;
Jorge CB 914... a builder who maintains a professional relationship;
March Mxxxxxx (without number) is friend of the accused that he knew when he worked at Remax, lives in Lagos and who keeps current relationship;
Paul 125... owner of the firm 125 computers, which did maintenance on his computers;
Skoda 282... is the telephone number of Skoda in Portimao;
Teresa 969... a lady known to Michaela and her husband who performed office organisation services Luis' firm and also provided some help in Romigen;
Valter 918... has a mechanical workshop in Lagos and services cars in particular the VW van;
Pedro Oxxxxxxx 917... he does not recall who this person is;
Reis Sxxxxx 966... is an Inspector of PJ contacted in this process;
Alex 282... is Dr.Alexandra Sxxxxx who has an office in Praia da Luz, whom he contacted when working in Remax;
Dr. Alex 918... mobile of Alexandra Sxxxxx;
Carla 963... Carla Bxxxxxxx, coordinator of Remax in Lagos;
John Nxxxx 917... a former colleague with the Remax who is not related;
Luis Fxxxxxxx 969...a former colleague of Remax who are not relates;
Lurde 967... a former colleague of Remax who is not related;
Nuno Bxxxxx 916... former husband of the former manager of Remax who is not related;
Richard Mxxxx 969... a former colleague of Remax who is not related;
Tania 967... a former colleague of Remax who is not related;
Z� accounting 969... Jose Fxxxx, accountant for Remax who is related in professional terms;
Anja 919... a friend of his and Michaela, lives in Lagos, is German and they relate frequently;
Czech 967... mobile of the son of Mrs Lxxx who he has known for many years and working in England in health services; Dan 918... who takes care of Villa Liliana when there is nobody at home, lives in Praia da Luz;
Dan 282... Dan's home phone;
Glyn 447... mobile of a friend of his aunt who stays with her when he comes to Portugal, lives near London and did not meet with him when he went to England;
Home 282... phone of his home (Casa Liliana);
Luis 919... Luis Axxxxxxx Michaela's husband;
Mum 447... mobile phone that his mother used in England;
Mum 917... mobile of his mother;
Pagarete 918... Dr. Francisco Pagarete is a friend with this gentleman who is also his lawyer;
Rui 969... Rui C. a former colleague of Remax who is not now in contact but with whom he had a close relationship;
Rui 963... another number of Rui Cxxxxxxx;
Serge 914... Sergey Malinca's mobile;
Vital 912... A Jehova's Witness who provided bible lessons;
Carlos Bxxxxx 917... builder in Lagos who keeps a professional relationship;
Catherine 968... friend of his mother who lives in the Pxxxx Gxxxxxx, Praia da Luz;
Maria Sxxxxx 962... (incomplete) sold an apartment to her son when he worked at Remax;
Lloyd Hxxxx 447... sold an apartment to him when he was in Lagos at Remax, has no other relationship with him;
Mike Hxxxxxx 918... had professional relationship with this gentleman;
Paul Axxxxxxx 917... has a ruin in Aljezur and is related in professional terms, is a friend of his brother Richard;
Roger 447... and 447... does not recall who this person is;
Vitor 962... it seems that this is the Vitor that had an apartment and a shop for sale in Lagos whom he met while working at Remax;
Jorge Sxxxx 282... Jorge Sxxxx's office in Lagos, person with whom he intends to form a partnership;
Mark resident 917... manager of the newspaper Algarve Resident whom he met through his involvement in the disappearance of Madeleine, does not maintain contact;
Consulate 282.490.750 British Consulate in Portimao;
Lili Bxxx 918... was manager of the Caixa Agr�cola in Praia da Luz, does not maintain relations with her;
Michael Gxxxxx 282... is not sure but it will be the number of the house of a boy who he met about two years ago, was employee of a restaurant in Lagos and currently are not in contact;
Pedro 966... and 282... and 913... does not remember who this person is;
Sonia Vxxxxx 917... Dr. Pagarete's girlfriend, a friend;
Tom Hxxxxxx 969... seller of advertising space in the newspaper Portugal News, only relates to professionally;
Z� Fxxxxxx 917... man providing firewood;
Pxxxxxxx 967... friend who lives in Lagos;
Saly 965... owner of the "big house" in Burgau with whom he has had a relationship for many years;
Saly 447... Saly's mobile in England;
Anica 966... former colleague from Remax who is not related;
Delfim 963... representative of Remax in Lagos who is related in professional term;
Larysa 969... ex colleague of Remax who is not related;
Luis Sxxxxx 964... a former colleague of Remax who is not related;
Marisa 969... a former colleague of Remax who is not related;
Remax 282... Remax shop in Lagos;
Sandra 967... a former colleague of Remax with whom he relates from time to time;
James 916... a former colleague of Remax who is not related.

---- In this interview, at 19.30, notification is given that interrogation of the arguido is ended and will continue tomorrow, notice of that session having already been given to him as well as to his defence attorney.

---- That session will take place at 10:00 in the premises of the Department of Criminal Investigation of Portimao.

No more was said ...